This is the text of a meme and a conversation. It is an example of labeling and poor argument. I reproduce it here to give an idea of the type of assumptive, emotive diatribe that passes as 'argument' in today's political world. Overweening, adjective-laden diatribes fill our airwaves and our media, and are not argument or data. Most of it comes from the Left, as I experience it (I'm sure I will get objection here), and it remains a reason I will not vote for their candidates. I'm always astonished at how people think insults and aggression will garner support.....
Anyway, here is the text. You get to decide whose argument is rational, and perhaps provide what response you would give.
Meme
My conscience is clear. I didn't vote for Trump. I'm not an idiot.
Me
I bristle at these memes. I actually got into an ugly argument with the wife of a friend of mine, who put up a similar post linking Trump voters to misogynists, racists and xenophobes.
Trump voters were not and are not stupid. They made a choice between two candidates. I'd do it again, too.
Respondent
You obviously are anything but stupid so I don't understand your voting for or supporting Trump and most especially continuing to. He is the most dishonest, unbalanced, unqualified, incompetetent, down right dangerous President America has ever seen, period. This is the opinion of most Americans, most of the global community as well as Presidential historians and political scientists, the real experts in this field, not to mention economists, diplomats, national security experts, intelligence experts and flag grade military leaders. This is especially true after the past eleven months of continuing erratic behavior, incompetence, contradictions, lies and further disclosure of facts and criminal activity, including what many believe to be treason. While Hillary was a bad choice, Trump is an even worse, unacceptable and, above all, dangerous choice. He is an embarrassment to America beyond that which the world has ever seen. He makes the Clintons look Washingtonesque and Lincolnesque by comparison. I can't imagine what your reasoning is but a great many of his supporters, the so-called deplorables, are all the things mentioned above and/or are uninformed, misinformed, angry people or people who think we can turn back the hands of time (regressives). Hillary was a bad choice which I said from the beginning but Trump is a completely unacceptable, un-American, degenerate reprobate and unmitigated disaster.
Me
A slightly lengthy reply. I'm not trying to hijack your page, so please take my comments down if you don't like them.
I remain thrilled with Trump's agenda and actions. I don't care for his manners or his tweeting. I write a blog for which I read a dozen or so sources daily, sometimes as many as three dozen, across the entire political spectrum. The various other adjectives which you applied are, of course, opinions. If I read only CNN or listened to TV news (I don't) I might feel similarly. Data do not support the negative imagery, which is why I continue to support him. Trump has called for nothing except the enforcement of our immigration laws (albeit in ugly and accusatory terms), the furtherment of American interests and our economy, and the defeat of our enemies. To date, he has done just that. The military high command credits Trump's clear statement of ISIS objectives and the restatement of rules of engagement for our successes against them. His tax policy is not class damaging or divisive, unlike its portrayal in some outlets (and again data confirms this). Deportations are way up from inside the US, while attempts at border crossings are way down. Our economy is roaring as is the stock market.
The narrative on trade is we are taking ourselves out of open trade agreements. The flip side of that is we are closing our trade borders to cheaper labor and currency manipulators. I agree with the latter, as everyone else did during the 2016 election.
To date there is not one shred of evidence of collusion with Russia. The Left have developed the tactic of accusation accompanied by media amplification. It did not work in the 2016 election and it isn't working against Roy Moore now, especially since one of his accusers admitted falsifying 'parts' of the yearbook.
It is the recent Democratic administration that committed crimes- the use of the IRS against conservative groups, the extra-legal assertion of presidential powers, and now the manipulation of the FBI, which has all the appearance of being used as a kind of Palace Guard for Democrats. Clinton's foundation is a great, nominally legal money-laundering scheme. I admire its cleverness. No one talked at all about the sources of contributions- Saudi Arabia, other Arab countries, and...Russia.
I will never say Trump has behaved presidentially, but he is doing what he promised he would do, and I am satisfied.
Finally, Democrats should ask themselves why people like me- post-graduate educated, professional, socially liberal, and who has always voted Democrat until 2012- support Trump. We're not stupid or ignorant. I don't own a gun or go to church. In the answer to that question is found wisdom and strategy, not in labeling memes.
Respondent
Well, I disagree on all of this, especially the data. We simply don't have common facts anymore in America which is very troubling and dysfunctional. Tribalism has replaced logic, reason, facts and compromise. I thought it couldn't get any worse or more morally bankrupt than Trump but here comes Roy Moore, pedophile, bigot, racist, etc. Twice thrown off the bench and the far Right, Trump and yhe RNC support him. I'm still not convinced even that's the bottom. Many of the Yrump and Moore supporters are stupid and ignorant and hateful but there are few monoliths in American politics. Perhaps Republicans should ask themselves why people like me, graduate school educated professional with a political science degree who was always a center to center left, fiercely independent thinker and voter who does own guns and gpes to church very occassiionally can no longer stomach the GOP on almost any level let alone vote for a Republican. The Republican Party has changed far more than the Democratic Party and for the worst. So what you are saying is that prior to 2012 you were uninformed or ignorant or stupid but that all changed with your new found "wisdom" and "strategy", whatever that means. I seem to recall quite a few labeling memes during Obama's eight years in office. As I stated earlier, most professionals who study this for a living, with post graduate degrees in this subject matter come to the polar opposite conclusion that you have. I suppose we have to consider if you were, shall we just say completely wrong, prior to 2012 or now. I really don't have the words, I just can't fathom how any person of average intelligence, information and morals and ethics can support the likes of Trump and Moore. I really wish I understood, most of the country and world does.
Anyway, here is the text. You get to decide whose argument is rational, and perhaps provide what response you would give.
Meme
My conscience is clear. I didn't vote for Trump. I'm not an idiot.
Me
I bristle at these memes. I actually got into an ugly argument with the wife of a friend of mine, who put up a similar post linking Trump voters to misogynists, racists and xenophobes.
Trump voters were not and are not stupid. They made a choice between two candidates. I'd do it again, too.
Respondent
You obviously are anything but stupid so I don't understand your voting for or supporting Trump and most especially continuing to. He is the most dishonest, unbalanced, unqualified, incompetetent, down right dangerous President America has ever seen, period. This is the opinion of most Americans, most of the global community as well as Presidential historians and political scientists, the real experts in this field, not to mention economists, diplomats, national security experts, intelligence experts and flag grade military leaders. This is especially true after the past eleven months of continuing erratic behavior, incompetence, contradictions, lies and further disclosure of facts and criminal activity, including what many believe to be treason. While Hillary was a bad choice, Trump is an even worse, unacceptable and, above all, dangerous choice. He is an embarrassment to America beyond that which the world has ever seen. He makes the Clintons look Washingtonesque and Lincolnesque by comparison. I can't imagine what your reasoning is but a great many of his supporters, the so-called deplorables, are all the things mentioned above and/or are uninformed, misinformed, angry people or people who think we can turn back the hands of time (regressives). Hillary was a bad choice which I said from the beginning but Trump is a completely unacceptable, un-American, degenerate reprobate and unmitigated disaster.
Me
A slightly lengthy reply. I'm not trying to hijack your page, so please take my comments down if you don't like them.
I remain thrilled with Trump's agenda and actions. I don't care for his manners or his tweeting. I write a blog for which I read a dozen or so sources daily, sometimes as many as three dozen, across the entire political spectrum. The various other adjectives which you applied are, of course, opinions. If I read only CNN or listened to TV news (I don't) I might feel similarly. Data do not support the negative imagery, which is why I continue to support him. Trump has called for nothing except the enforcement of our immigration laws (albeit in ugly and accusatory terms), the furtherment of American interests and our economy, and the defeat of our enemies. To date, he has done just that. The military high command credits Trump's clear statement of ISIS objectives and the restatement of rules of engagement for our successes against them. His tax policy is not class damaging or divisive, unlike its portrayal in some outlets (and again data confirms this). Deportations are way up from inside the US, while attempts at border crossings are way down. Our economy is roaring as is the stock market.
The narrative on trade is we are taking ourselves out of open trade agreements. The flip side of that is we are closing our trade borders to cheaper labor and currency manipulators. I agree with the latter, as everyone else did during the 2016 election.
To date there is not one shred of evidence of collusion with Russia. The Left have developed the tactic of accusation accompanied by media amplification. It did not work in the 2016 election and it isn't working against Roy Moore now, especially since one of his accusers admitted falsifying 'parts' of the yearbook.
It is the recent Democratic administration that committed crimes- the use of the IRS against conservative groups, the extra-legal assertion of presidential powers, and now the manipulation of the FBI, which has all the appearance of being used as a kind of Palace Guard for Democrats. Clinton's foundation is a great, nominally legal money-laundering scheme. I admire its cleverness. No one talked at all about the sources of contributions- Saudi Arabia, other Arab countries, and...Russia.
I will never say Trump has behaved presidentially, but he is doing what he promised he would do, and I am satisfied.
Finally, Democrats should ask themselves why people like me- post-graduate educated, professional, socially liberal, and who has always voted Democrat until 2012- support Trump. We're not stupid or ignorant. I don't own a gun or go to church. In the answer to that question is found wisdom and strategy, not in labeling memes.
Respondent
Well, I disagree on all of this, especially the data. We simply don't have common facts anymore in America which is very troubling and dysfunctional. Tribalism has replaced logic, reason, facts and compromise. I thought it couldn't get any worse or more morally bankrupt than Trump but here comes Roy Moore, pedophile, bigot, racist, etc. Twice thrown off the bench and the far Right, Trump and yhe RNC support him. I'm still not convinced even that's the bottom. Many of the Yrump and Moore supporters are stupid and ignorant and hateful but there are few monoliths in American politics. Perhaps Republicans should ask themselves why people like me, graduate school educated professional with a political science degree who was always a center to center left, fiercely independent thinker and voter who does own guns and gpes to church very occassiionally can no longer stomach the GOP on almost any level let alone vote for a Republican. The Republican Party has changed far more than the Democratic Party and for the worst. So what you are saying is that prior to 2012 you were uninformed or ignorant or stupid but that all changed with your new found "wisdom" and "strategy", whatever that means. I seem to recall quite a few labeling memes during Obama's eight years in office. As I stated earlier, most professionals who study this for a living, with post graduate degrees in this subject matter come to the polar opposite conclusion that you have. I suppose we have to consider if you were, shall we just say completely wrong, prior to 2012 or now. I really don't have the words, I just can't fathom how any person of average intelligence, information and morals and ethics can support the likes of Trump and Moore. I really wish I understood, most of the country and world does.
If this meme & conversation exchange is typical of the U.S., then I find it dispiriting, for it means that constructive dialogue between people of opposing viewpoints cannot take place.
ReplyDeleteThe respondent is not arguing, merely stating preferences, calling names (ad hominem fallacy) and then appealing to "authority" to "back up" said preferences.
But claiming authority is on your side - without stating any of the specifics involved in any issues being discussed - is merely a way to AVOID thinking.
Reading this exchange, I can't help but think of Monty Python's "The Argument Clinic": "This isn't an argument...This is just contradiction...An argument is not the same as contradiction...An argument is a collective series of statements to establish a definite proposition...Argument is an intellectual process, contradiction is just an automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says..."
-D-